EP. 97: REFLECTIONS ON HAPPINESS FROM 80 YEARS IN MEDICINE

Jan 30

WITH GLADYS McGAREY, MD

A 104-year-old physician and co-founder of the Academy of Integrative Health and Medicine shares how finding love and human connection are key to healing and happiness.

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Episode Summary

Born in India in 1920, Gladys McGarey, MD has a life story marked with various pivotal moments of the 20th century. She witnessed Gandhi's Salt March in her final childhood days in India, arrived in the US in the midst of the Great Depression, began medical school four months before the US joined the Second World War, and became a physician at a time when few women were accepted in the profession. She would later co-found the Academy of Integrative Health and Medicine and the American Board of Integrative Medicine. At over 100 years old, Dr Gladys, as she likes to be called, is still practicing medicine. In 2023, she published The Well-Lived Life: A 100-Year-Old Doctor’s Six Secrets to Health and Happiness At Every Age, in which she details her approach to a happy life by focusing on finding love and purpose.

In this episode, Dr Gladys joins us to discuss her remarkable journey in medicine, what holistic medicine means to her, her own experiences with cancer, the healing power of love and human connection, and more.

The daughter of two medical doctors, Gladys Taylor McGarey, MD was born in India in 1920. As a child she travelled through the Indian outback on medical safaris with her parents. In 1935 she came to the United States to attend college and medical school. Today, she is internationally recognized as the Mother of Holistic Medicine. Dr. Gladys, as she is affectionately known, is board certified in Holistic and Integrated Medicine and has had a family practice for more than sixty years. She is the co-founder of the American Holistic Medical Association, as well as the co-founder of the Academy of Parapsychology and Medicine. She has been making a difference since the 1940s.
Once she began the practice of medicine, Dr. Gladys felt the emphasis on disease and pharmaceutical intervention was wrong. In their zeal to combat infection and disease, doctors often overlooked the most important aspect of the patient—how they heal. She believed doctors should focus on the whole person with treatment that emphasized prevention and wellness through life-style changes. For her, holistic medicine means the art and science of healing that addresses care of the whole person, recognizing the interconnectedness of all aspects – body, mind, emotions, spirit – and the centrality of compassionate care in the healing relationship.
She has received numerous honors and awards including: the Humanities Award for Outstanding Service to Mankind, presented by the National Committee for the Advancement of Parapsychology and Medicine; the David Stackhouse award for pioneering excellence in Homeopathy; the YWCA “Tribute to Women” award in the healer category; one of the Top Ten Arizona Women of 1993; the 2001 Lifetime Distinguished Service Award from Muskingum College in Ohio; the Native American Elder Award from the Phoenix Area of Indian Health Services; and in 2003 was honored by the American Holistic Medical Association as a Pioneer of Holistic Medicine.
In this episode, you will hear about:
• 2:08 - Dr. Gladys’ early years and her path to becoming a physician
• 7:20 - The discrimination that Dr. Gladys endured as a female physician
• 11:02 - What Dr. Gladys’ medical practice looked like when she began her career
• 12:23 - Dr. Gladys’s definition of holistic medicine and how it became a part of her practice
• 18:22 - Dr. Gladys’s case for why love is essential when providing healing for a patient
• 23:27 - How Dr. Gladys’ own experience as a cancer patient demonstrates her approach to holistic medicine
• 26:12 - What Dr. Gladys believes has been lost amidst all of the advances that medicine has made
• 30:09 - How spirituality has affected Dr. Gladys’ approach to medicine
• 31:41 - Concrete ways that doctors can incorporate holistic sensibilities into their practices
Henry Bair: [00:00:01] Hi, I'm Henry Bair.
Tyler Johnson: [00:00:02] And I'm Tyler Johnson.
Henry Bair: [00:00:04] And you're listening to The Doctor's Art, a podcast that explores meaning in medicine. Throughout our medical training and career, we have pondered what makes medicine meaningful. Can a stronger understanding of this meaning create better doctors? How can we build healthcare institutions that nurture the doctor patient connection? What can we learn about the human condition from accompanying our patients in times of suffering?
Tyler Johnson: [00:00:27] In seeking answers to these questions, we meet with deep thinkers working across healthcare, from doctors and nurses to patients and health care executives those who have collected a career's worth of hard earned wisdom probing the moral heart that beats at the core of medicine. We will hear stories that are by turns heartbreaking, amusing, inspiring, challenging, and enlightening. We welcome anyone curious about why doctors do what they do. Join us as we think out loud about what illness and healing can teach us about some of life's biggest questions.
Henry Bair: [00:01:02] Born in India in 1920, Dr. Gladys McGarey's life story is marked with various pivotal moments of the 20th century. She witnessed Gandhi's Salt March in her final childhood days, arrived in the US in the midst of the Great Depression, began medical school four months before the US joined the Second World War and became a physician at a time when few women were accepted in the profession. She would later co-found the Academy of Integrative Health and Medicine and the American Board of Holistic Medicine. At over 100 years old, Dr Gladys, as she likes to be called, is still practicing medicine. In 2023, she published The Well-Lived Life, in which she details her approach to a happy life by focusing on finding love and purpose. In this episode, Dr Gladys joins us to discuss her remarkable journey in medicine, what holistic medicine means to her, her own experiences with cancer, the healing power of love and human connection, and more.
Henry Bair: [00:02:04] Doctor Gladys, thank you for joining us and welcome to the show.
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:02:07] Thank you.
Henry Bair: [00:02:08] To start us off, can you share with us what first drew you to medicine? Almost a century ago?
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:02:15] Well, 100 years ago, actually. I was born in India. My mother went into labor at the Taj Mahal with me, just, you know. And then we had a wild drive in Model-t Ford to get to the hospital in time. Anyway, my parents were both medical missionaries. They were osteopaths. And they went to India in 1914, right in the middle of World War I. And so I grew up with the whole field of medicine, so much a part of everything that we did that I just knew when I was two years old that I was a doctor already.
Tyler Johnson: [00:02:58] And so walk us through then. What did the formal path for you becoming a physician? What did that look like?
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:03:04] When I started school, I was so severely dyslexic that I was unable to read, so I had to repeat first grade as the class dummy for for two years I had this deep injury to my psyche, but the third grade teacher saw something in me that other one hadn't, so that I was able to really reclaim something of who and what I was. And my family was fine because my parents both were really, really good at helping to encourage us to be who we really wanted to be. So when I was 15 to go to Muskingum College in Ohio, and then I went to Women's Medical College in Philadelphia. I started there in 1941. In September, World War II started in December, so all through the time of the war we were in medical school and it was the only women's medical school in the country. We started with 50 women and only 25 of us graduated, because the idea was that you're going to be facing so hard, tough work out when you get out in the field that we're going to make it tough for you here. And it worked that way. But but you know, we started and we got into internships.
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:04:38] My internship was at Deaconess Hospital in Cincinnati. This hospital had no women physicians ever. So when I was on a call, I had no place to sleep. So I got the x ray table and a pillow and a blanket. And, you know, it really was difficult for a woman to even think about being accepted by people when we actually started our practice in Ohio. I had people the first few years tell me to get out of their house and go take care of my babies, and I would have to call my husband, who was a physician, and he could take over and get them in the hospital or do whatever they needed to do exactly what I was going to do, but or was doing. So the you know, those were really tough years, but they were amazing years. The things that we got to do and for me at this point, to be able to talk to you and to be able to do this amazing connection, which technology is allowing us to do now when, when we had nothing, I mean, really nothing. Oh, we did have a telephone.
Tyler Johnson: [00:06:01] You sort of alluded to this, but I just want to paint the landscape a little bit more. We had a doctor on a couple of months ago, Dr Gunther Henry, I think was probably in her training years, maybe, let's say, 2 or 3 decades ago. And she was telling us that she was in her training, sort of just after it had become much more common and accepted for women to be in medicine and for women to be doctors. But all of that is just to say that for you who were in your training many decades ago and as you say at the Women's Medical College, I imagine that at that time, at most of the other, you know, quote unquote, standard medical schools, that there were virtually no women in the medical school classes. Is that true?
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:06:47] Well, if there were, there weren't more than ten with possibly a hundred students, male students. No, we were we were very scarce and had to really fight. If I would introduce myself as Dr Gladys McGarey, people would laugh and walk away.
Henry Bair: [00:07:08] Wow.
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:07:09] So. But you learn, you you take what you get. I was grateful for the x ray table. I wasn't feeling put on because of that. It was. Well, at least they let me do this, you know?
Tyler Johnson: [00:07:20] Yeah, it's striking to me because we had on the program quite a while ago, uh, doctor named Pamela Coons, who was an oncologist at Stanford who eventually left Stanford, in part because of ways that she was mistreated while she was there, because she was a woman. And she talked to us about another doctor, a very famous neurosurgeon at Stanford, Francis Conley, who had been a neurosurgeon in the late 80s and early 90s. I think the first tenured neurosurgeon at Stanford, but who also ended up, I think, leaving medicine altogether, but at least leaving Stanford and then wrote a book about why she left called Walking Out on the Boys. But that's just to say that that book was published in 1991, and Doctor Coons left Stanford for Yale in, I don't know exactly 2020 or 2019, something like that. But it's just to say that with those vestiges of sexism still present here, you know, five years ago, and then here, you know, 25 or 30 years ago, I can only imagine what it must have been like to practice medicine as a woman at a time when most people, as you've sort of alluded to, you know, probably acted like they didn't even think that that was a possibility to have a woman be a doctor or didn't even know what to make of that.
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:08:41] That's right. You know, we were such an oddity. But, you know, all through these times, I've had what I've called my angels in the flesh who have helped me through those times. It's like when I was doing this. Hardship. The chief resident was so opinionated about this thing. He knew three things. He knew that first, women didn't belong in medicine. He knew I didn't belong in medicine. And he knew that pregnant women didn't belong in medicine because I had gotten married and I was pregnant with my first son, who is now a retired orthopedic surgeon. But, you know, at that point he was really hell bent on getting me out. And he would schedule my surgery at 7:00 so I could get nothing to eat until after eight, because that's when the cafeteria opened up and he would give me the longest surgery. So I'd have a five hour surgery. And his opinion of how I could be there was just so set that he would do everything that he could to make it, that I couldn't get through this. And of course, that made everything that I could to make it so I would get through it. And I knew this baby of mine was going to get through it with me. And then all of a sudden the schedule started to change on the blackboard, and he's yelling at me about changing. I said, I didn't do it, I didn't do it. But one night when I about 2:00 in the morning, when I had jumped off my X-ray table to go to see a patient, I walked out in the hall and Lucille, the little maid on that floor, was changing my name and putting Carl Ferber's name up there and putting my name down at 9:00. I mean, she could have lost her job for doing that. I had things like that happen where people would see what was going on and understand and change it for me. So it's been an amazing trip to just get my voice heard. But, you know, you keep on.
Tyler Johnson: [00:11:02] Just to be clear, what did you do your internship in and did you then do a residency and then what kind of practice did you go into?
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:11:11] No, it was family medicine. Well, actually we had orthopedics and obstetrics or a couple of other things in this small hospital in Cincinnati, but it was just general practice. And when we started our our practice bill and I, it was in Wellsville, Ohio as family docs. And really, it took 2 or 3 years before I was really accepted in the town as being an accepted doctor, and it wasn't that big a just 9000 people. So it's that kind of a trip that you learn how to deal with those things and not let it take you off track, because those things could really hurt you in ways that if you're not totally committed to what is going on and to your own path, it was very, very hard. But the interesting thing was my mother was ahead of me. She became a doctor in 1913. She became an osteopath at my dad and mother were taught by A.T. Still.
Henry Bair: [00:12:23] Wow. Well, thank you very much for your story of strength and resilience there, moving forward through time, through your career. Eventually you'd really become known for your work in holistic medicine at a time when this terme wasn't really well known. This mode of thinking as this approach to medicine was still just totally foreign to most people. Can you tell us how how did you discover, how did you develop holistic medicine, and what do you actually mean by holistic medicine?
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:12:57] We had gotten interested in the Edgar Casey work, which is a huge introduction into this whole area back in 1955. But there were people writing like, uh, Rachel Carson's Silent Spring, who actually... Nutrition was coming into the field of medicine. So there it was a time when different things were beginning to be looked at and looked for and people were looking for. I mean, the patients were looking for it, even if we weren't.
Henry Bair: [00:13:29] So what is holistic medicine, right? Like if a patient came to you and was unfamiliar, right, with like what this entailed, how would you describe it to them?
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:13:39] I would describe it as the very essence of healing. Within each one of us, the physician and the patient are partners, and holistic medicine is the way in which we connect with that. My oldest son, who is a retired orthopedic surgeon, came through Phenix, and when he was ready to start his practice in Del Rio, Texas, and he said to me, mom, I'm going into the world. I'm going to have people's lives in my hand. I don't know if I can handle that. And I said, Carl, if you think you're the one that does the healing, you're a right to be scared. But if you can do this where you. Are actually the one who is allowing the patient to understand what the healing for their particular problem is, and you work with that physician within them. Then you have a colleague, and this colleague within you is the one that's actually going to do the healing while you present it to them. But it has to be presented in a way that you love them enough, and you love your own message enough that it's a message of love and healing. So actually, to try and separate the whole healing process from the understanding that all aspects of healing are a movement of energy. It's energy that's moving from one dot, from the doctor to the patient, from the patient to the doctor. And in my mind, it was so important to understand that the patient has responsibility in their own healing because, you know, if you just do the thing that you do and then the patient decides not to do it, that's their issue. It's not yours at that point. It's hard to accept that. But it's true.
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:15:41] The whole concept of holistic medicine is something that takes into consideration. The reality, which I think is a reality is that love is the great healer. And as we accept different modalities, alternatives, acupuncture, whatever, those are ways in which we can actually access the whole healing power of each one of us, because it's a constant changing energy that we each have to understand at our own level and take in and work with.
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:16:23] I have understood that there are five L's that explain it to me. These five L's all have to do with love. The first two are life and love. The first two L's and those two go together. They're like, uh, yin and yang. They're the duality of this world is the masculine and feminine. So those two are one unit. You know, you can you have a shell in a pyramid, and it can't do anything until love in the form of water and so on breaks the shell and then it can do it. But the third L is laughter. Laughter without love is cruel. It causes wars. It causes families to break apart. The fourth one is labor. Labor without love is drudgery. You drag yourself. I got to go to work. Too many diapers, all that kind of stuff. But labor with love is bliss. It's why you're doing what you're doing. It's why I'm doing what I'm doing. It's what makes our hearts see. It's the inner aspect of each one of us that does 15 times more work than we would do if we were just dragging ourselves to work. And the fifth L is listening. Listening without love is empty sound. But listening with love is understanding. So for me, the very essence of holistic medicine is a complicated process of understanding what healing is all about. And it's a really personal process within the patient and the doctor, or within the patient as they choose to work with it.
Tyler Johnson: [00:18:22] So I want to ask you something, though, and and this is I want to be clear that I'm not as skeptical of what you're saying as this question is going to make it sound, but I want to ask it because I'm trying to give voice to what I think a lot of people who are listening might say, which is just to say that if I think if if I were to go into the combined medical school classes at Stanford or most other places, and try to give them a lecture on how loving your patient with that word, loving your patient is key to taking care of them in the right way, or something to that effect. I think I would get a lot of strange looks. I think a lot of people would say, love your. We care for the patient, we care about the patient. We try to provide healing to the patient. There are a lot of things we do for the patient. We learn about the patient. We talk to the patient but love the patient. I think they would look at that idea pretty skeptically. So I guess I have two questions that you can sort of answer them together.
Tyler Johnson: [00:19:29] The first one is if you were talking to a skeptical young medical student and you were trying to make the case for why loving the patient is important, what would you say? That's the first question is why? But then the second question is if you had, let's say, that same young medical student and they say, well, okay, now let's pretend you've convinced me that it's important for me to love my patients. But then they say, but how in the world with all the 9 million things that I have to do, right, if I'm an intern on call or I'm the medical student learning how to see kids in the pediatrics clinic or or I'm the, you know, surgery resident who's running around with 3000 things to do, I can't even eat and go to the bathroom, let alone love every person whose room I walked into. And I might, you know, see 50 patients in a day or whatever, like. So the first question is, why does love matter in terms of the relationship between the doctor and the patient? And the second is, even if we accept that it matters, how are you really supposed to do that?
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:20:26] Stories tell things for me. Okay, I have a wonderful neurologist friend who teaches at the university here at medical school. He told me a couple of weeks ago that he was going to see a patient with a resident. She was waiting at the door for him to come up. So he came up and he says, well, let's go in. And she says, oh, we don't need to. And he says, now wait a minute. What do you mean we don't need to? She says he has Alzheimer's. He won't understand anything we say. So my friend said, now wait a minute. Let me explain something to you. He said, were there two patients in there? One is his wife and the other is the patient. He may have trouble understanding what it is that we're saying, but his wife won't, and she'll understand it with love and understanding. Be able to transfer that to her husband, who can then work with it. However his psyche is working with it at the present time. So he said. And the other thing is, we have to be able to touch them. The feeling of allowing ourselves to touch our patients is really important. I through the years have hugged my patients. Now that's I can tell you how many times that's been considered a just whack a doodle, but it's allowed me to connect who I was with the patients. You know, as an individual person.
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:22:08] Like you said, the whole idea of how in the world do you explain this to somebody else who's totally inundated with the technology and the amazing amount of information that we have to store in our brains in order to keep going? It's a total workout, but if it's just drudgery and you're just dragging yourself through it and you don't understand your own love for yourself, you know there are times when you just have to say, enough already, I need to, I need time out and take if it's getting too much, take a break. But it's not something that's impossible. It's like I said, the drudgery part of that is what just drags you through it, and you just barely can understand anything. But when you have the idea that this is this is what I love to do, I am who I am. I know that I can do something, and somehow I have to figure out how I can do this. We have to love ourselves enough to be. Able to express ourselves in a way that we can do that.
Henry Bair: [00:23:27] Speaking about the power of love and healing. You actually wrote in your book about several experiences you had as a cancer patient yourself, right? I'm wondering whether you can tell us that story of like, how? Because again, like to Tyler's point, I think when we think about love, it can be hard to see its place in modern medicine and modern healing with all the technology, with all the latest therapies. It's just not a word we use or hear a lot in the clinic, in the hospital, right? But in your book, you use your own experience in healing as a patient to demonstrate what you meant by that. Can you share with us your story?
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:24:04] I've had several bouts with cancer. My breast cancer, as soon as it was diagnosed, I told myself that I understood the diagnosis and that we, me and myself and I have to figure out how we were going to deal with this because I'm in a position where people expect me to do everything in a holistic way. Okay. And I was going to actually have a lumpectomy and I was going to have radiation because it was the thing to do at that time. And, and I understood it. And so in my mind and to my body, I created a little thought pattern that was a little suitcase that was hand tooled and just a beautiful little suitcase. And I told my breast that we were going to be going on a trip. This suitcase is where this lump, this who I was identifying, had to be put into the suitcase so that it it could take its own trip. And so when I had this inner talk with that aspect of my breast, and when we went into surgery and I came out, I was letting that suitcase with the lump in it go on a vacation. But I told it that before it went on the vacation, this part of me had to call all the other possible cancer cells in my body and stick them in there with them so that they could get out at the same time and take this trip. I mean, it was just a thought pattern that I could work with, and my body understood it well enough that I could get the lumpectomy and the radiation, and people could understand that I was still true to my word.
Tyler Johnson: [00:26:12] So you started practicing, you said in in 1948. Is that right?
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:26:16] Yes.
Tyler Johnson: [00:26:17] So 48 until now would be 5272. So 75 years. It would be pretty easy to look back on 75 years in medicine and make a timeline of all of the advances in that time, right? New antibiotics, new anticancer medicines, new ways of scanning patients, new blood tests, all sorts of things. And we could also pull out a graph and look at the increase in average adult life expectancy in the United States and see how that's changed. Right. So it's not it's not difficult in some ways to pinpoint all of the both the, the degree to which medicine has advanced and the specific ways in which medicine has advanced. But all of that said, I think there is many physicians, even though most physicians have not been practicing nearly as long as you have, have this sense. And this is part of the impetus for us having this podcast that with all of those advances, something has been lost. Yes. And so for you who have this, I think it's almost literally true to say unique vantage point. At least we will look for a very long time before we find someone else who's been in the practice of medicine for 75 years. So for you, who has this unique vantage point, how would you distill down what you think has been lost in the midst of all of the advances that medicine has made?
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:27:43] Well. When I started in medical, we were at war. We never stopped being at war with disease and pain. And our whole focus has been now on curing diseases and eliminating pain. I mean that the essence of what we do, it focuses down to that. But what I'm looking for and have been looking for is in the process of working with the diseases, not to lose sight of who that patient is. And in the process recognizing that each patient is a person and that it's a personal relationship with that patient that allows us to be able to really work with the patient in a way that actually carries the message of love. See, my parents had nothing when they were in the jungles of India. And they treated hundreds of patients. They had quinine for malaria and that kind of thing, but in essence they had to create their own castes. If I had a broken leg and so on, it was a matter of my mother called it make do. You found what you could work with and you make do. Well, that make due process is what's helped me get along and tuck all of these concepts into the way in which I look at my process as a physician. And it's a way in which I really feel that it's so easily lost, because not so much the technology as the way in which we use that technology. You know, words are so hard to put this into, into reality. But as we live it and and it works, the patients understand that. They understand a loving hand, a loving hand on the shoulder, a loving person who actually cares about who they are. We have to be able to put the disease into context with that patient, and that's tricky.
Henry Bair: [00:30:09] So, you know, you talked about how you grew up with parents who were medical missionaries, right. And over the course of your career, it's been clear that you place a lot of focus on the things that are less empirical, that are intangible, but nonetheless real. Like, yes, you can't measure love, but we all feel it. We know what it means or what it feels like. We know its effects right on, on our own healing. So I'm curious to know, is spirituality an important part of your own life, and in what way has that affected your approach to medicine?
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:30:47] Well, the actual reality of spirituality, which is the essence of our very beings. Is core to it. In other words, if we see ourselves just as mechanical people that do mechanical things, life doesn't get interesting. But if we can understand that there's something within each one of us that is is a energy, it can connect with other energies. Because in order to live your lives, you have to keep moving. If you stop moving, you get stuck. But the movement is a movement of the process of our loving ourselves enough that we can care to do the work that we have to do to love ourselves so that we can love other people too.
Henry Bair: [00:31:41] Well, what the last question here. I want to tie it together and say and ask. You know, we've talked a lot about overarching themes or overarching approaches to healing in general. Now, let's say you had a really busy medical trainee or a clinician right now who, you know, day to day is seeing patients and you're trying to encourage them to bring in more of this living medicine, that you've developed this holistic approach to health care into each patient encounter that they have that day. What are some concrete things you can recommend them to do to better incorporate more of this holistic approach?
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:32:26] Pay attention to your dreams. Pay attention to what makes you feel like the sun comes up in the morning, but if you're not looking for it, you're always in. In a dark room. You don't see the sun. You have to be looking for the light. I think really, that we as human beings are reaching for our true humanity. We're the only entities on this earth that have free will and choice. And we. Have the choice of looking for what it is that we want to look for, what makes our heart sing, what makes us want to reach out to other people, or what makes us want to understand ourselves better. You know, things that light us up. We can look for the dark things that are so painful and get stuck with them. It's like when I was faced with a divorce and everything, I changed my license plate because I realized with all the pain I was going through and everything, every time I got into my car, if I had license plate that said, be glad, I would have to pay attention to that. And all the time I was driving, the people behind me would have to pay attention to my, you know, they'd see the be glad and I'd be passing on some part of my essence that is wanting to be glad. It's my choice in what I want my life to be.
Henry Bair: [00:34:12] Well with that doctor. Gladys, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to share your stories on the show, to share your insights. Thank you for writing your book. I'm sure it'll be very valuable to both patients and clinicians alike. It's been a true pleasure and honor talking to you.
Dr Gladys McGarey: [00:34:28] Thank you.
Henry Bair: [00:34:33] Thank you for joining our conversation on this week's episode of The Doctor's Art. You can find program notes and transcripts of all episodes at www.theDoctorsArt.com. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe, rate and review our show available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Tyler Johnson: [00:34:52] We also encourage you to share the podcast with any friends or colleagues who you think might enjoy the program. And if you know of a doctor or patient, or anyone working in healthcare who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments.
Henry Bair: [00:35:06] I'm Henry Bair
Tyler Johnson: [00:35:07] and I'm Tyler Johnson. We hope you can join us next time. Until then, be well.